i've nothing against improv and i'm sure people are very good at doing it, it's more so the word "battle" that makes it seem like the whole thing is an excercise in self-satisfaction and trying to outdo each other. a musical pissing contest.
related discussion:
Tom HallWrote:
bowandarrow,
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but in your zeal to unchain yourself from the status quo, you are making what is a very natural and simple process (the process of improvisation) unneccessarily obtuse and confusing.
All music is transmitted orally and aurally. Only someone who does not understand jazz or classical music would say that either one is a written or fixed tradition. Being able to symbolize a tree by writing the word "tree" does not make an actual tree into a written or fixed thing, except in the minds of those foolish enough to believe that the symbol and the reality are the same.
Improvisation is the life force of all music. Without it, music is the rote repetition of a series of soundwaves. What gives ANY music it's life, what makes one want to listen to it, what gives it the ability to effect another human is improvisation.
Improvisation is a process, not a product, and this process of improvisation is the same, no matter what one is doing. It is a basic human ability, as essential to everything we do as other human abilities such as memory or rational thought. In order to thrive as a human, one must be a very good improviser. One's life is an improvisation, so it naturally follows that all one does in life contributes to understanding and getting better at improvising.
Humans are also aural beings. From before birth, paying attention to and organizing sound is a major part of everyone's existence. Everyone has a huge amount of conscious and unconscious knowledge and awareness of sound, a personal universe of sound.
Some people are especially attracted to playing and creating with sounds. It makes sense that every kind of sound they are aware of, every kind of sound they focus on and pay attention to, everything that they learn about creating and organizing sounds gives them a greater amount of awareness and knowledge about the possibilities of sound. It makes them better at understanding and being able to create out of these possibilities. The more one understands, both consciously and unconsciously, the more possibilities are available when one is improvising with sound. It's silly to say that a hammer is a better tool than a screwdriver. They are both very useful when the need arises.
Some people want to learn how to create sounds on a particular instrument. They want to be able to improvise using that particular device. Everything that they focus their attention on, everything that they learn how to do on that instrument gives them a greater range of possiblities that they can use when creating music on it. It makes them better at creating sound on that instrument. It makes them better at improvising with that instrument. It makes them better at figuring out how to use that particular instrument to do whatever it is that they wish to do.
The kind of sounds that people pay attention to, the kinds of things they learn how to do on their instrument is very individual (both personally and culturally), but there is no essential difference between learning one's scales and arpeggios and learning how to create 17 different kinds of shrieking sounds.
The only difference is what boundaries one chooses to create within, not the actual processes of learning about and becoming skilled at improvisation, music creation, or playing an instrument.
well put! i communicate it differently of course.
i still have a diverging opinon on certain matters:::
but, outside of the realm of "music", the taoist masters, tribesmen of times long past and cultural movements like "situationists" and "futurists", are, dare i say, more relevant to "music" than most of what is "trained", both in popular culture and institutions.
1:" Being able to symbolize a tree by writing the word "tree" does not make an actual tree into a written or fixed thing, except in the minds of those foolish enough to believe that the symbol and the reality are the same. "
You do understand that such a statement CLEARLY an insultingly unchains YOU from the "status quo". right>>>? you're talking about CONCIOUSNESS at this point, a metaphysical or spritual element in "reality" and human perception.
when you say "everything is improvization" you're right, so to speak. but in this way you then become more than an Artisan, more than a specialist in one thing or another, whether it be playing "music", or dealing with the impending "end of the world">
like Cage put it:"if you understand music the concert hall is meaningless">>>>
2."Improvisation is a process, not a product, and this process of improvisation is the same, no matter what one is doing. It is a basic human ability, as essential to everything we do as other human abilities such as memory or rational thought. In order to thrive as a human, one must be a very good improviser. One's life is an improvisation, so it naturally follows that all one does in life contributes to understanding and getting better at improvising"....
You must also understand that in making this statement you once again go far beyond the fractured and catagorized "daily life" most people deal with.
finding harmony in the destructive sounds of a cacophonous bustling metropolitan confusionmecca takes self-cultivation, meditation and relative de-tachment.
this is my point, anthropologically speaking, about the stark differences between Written(fixed tradition) and Flux (momentary traditions). the former being very limited, reactionary, hierarchical, etc... the latter being liberating, innovative, useful, relevant, etc.....
3."Some people are especially attracted to playing and creating with sounds. It makes sense that every kind of sound they are aware of, every kind of sound they focus on and pay attention to, everything that they learn about creating and organizing sounds gives them a greater amount of awareness and knowledge about the possibilities of sound. It makes them better at understanding and being able to create out of these possibilities. The more one understands, both consciously and unconsciously, the more possibilities are available when one is improvising with sound. It's silly to say that a hammer is a better tool than a screwdriver. They are both very useful when the need arises.<"
yep, but take a step back....start with your first two words: "some people".
everything else makes sense, now figure out the "some people" part, and you'll be onto something. the "why"? if you get my drift.
its cause and effect right? figure out why "some people" seem to be this way or that.
go back and survey what you can of culture and tradition and lifeways and you'll find that
it shouldnt and wasnt always just "some people". dig?
4."The kind of sounds that people pay attention to, the kinds of things they learn how to do on their instrument is very individual (both personally and culturally), but there is no essential difference between learning one's scales and arpeggios and learning how to create 17 different kinds of shrieking sounds."
right and wrong.
there is a HUGE difference between shreeking sounds and scales.
psychological, physical etc......
i agree that forms and sounds are the product of regional diversity and syncretic cultural adaptations, however, because "sound" is a form of energy which is based upon its own set of rules (just like light) there are differences in their effects on human beings!!!!
so, taking a step back and looking at WHY you are "using" this set or that set of tones, or Tonal POssibilities, is ESSENTIAL. its like being politically or socially aware, being conscious of what forces are molding or hindering you.
western 12 tone equal temperment is undeniably ACTIVE and "aggravating" to the human psyche. this is a matter of science and physics.
and the "group" is "bow and arrow",
i hath been dubbed : ANACHRON ANGLELIX druid and sage, sonic alchemist and shaminstrel
Tom Hall
M/48
Boston,
Massachusetts
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Posted: May 18, 2006 3:58 AM
A.A:
well put! i communicate it differently of course.
i still have a diverging opinon on certain matters:::
but, outside of the realm of "music", the taoist masters, tribesmen of times long past and cultural movements like "situationists" and "futurists", are, dare i say, more relevant to "music" than most of what is "trained", both in popular culture and institutions.
T:
Taoist masters, perhaps, though for an improviser other disciplines might be more fruitful
Tribesman of times long past -methinks you are romantising here - do you mean some specific aspect of a particular tribal culture?
Cultural movements are only movements when they move people -that's what makes them relevant or not - are these particular movements of interest to you and your music in some way?
T:
1:" Being able to symbolize a tree by writing the word "tree" does not make an actual tree into a written or fixed thing, except in the minds of those foolish enough to believe that the symbol and the reality are the same. "
AA:
You do understand that such a statement CLEARLY an insultingly unchains YOU from the "status quo". right>>>? you're talking about CONCIOUSNESS at this point, a metaphysical or spritual element in "reality" and human perception.
T:
The people I see may not be in the moment in the same way as a spiritual master, but they clearly know and appreciate the difference between the word tree, the mental concept of tree, and the magnificent tree that they see in the park. It's not that special. If presented with the opportunity, most of them can do the same in the realm of music.
A.A:
when you say "everything is improvization" you're right, so to speak. but in this way you then become more than an Artisan, more than a specialist in one thing or another, whether it be playing "music", or dealing with the impending "end of the world">
like Cage put it:"if you understand music the concert hall is meaningless">>>>
T:
Uh, no. It's a simply statement of fact, though dramatically put to capture the attention of those who are not aware of the pervasiveness of improv in human existence. It's about as accurate as saying "everthing is memory" or "everything is feeling". The process of improvisation is involved in some way in almost everything every person does. It's as important to humans success as a species as any other way we are different from other animals.
Like my statement about improv, I think the Cage quote is more about making a point then telling the truth.
T:
2."Improvisation is a process, not a product, and this process of improvisation is the same, no matter what one is doing. It is a basic human ability, as essential to everything we do as other human abilities such as memory or rational thought. In order to thrive as a human, one must be a very good improviser. One's life is an improvisation, so it naturally follows that all one does in life contributes to understanding and getting better at improvising"....
A.A:
You must also understand that in making this statement you once again go far beyond the fractured and catagorized "daily life" most people deal with.
finding harmony in the destructive sounds of a cacophonous bustling metropolitan confusionmecca takes self-cultivation, meditation and relative de-tachment.
this is my point, anthropologically speaking, about the stark differences between Written(fixed tradition) and Flux (momentary traditions). the former being very limited, reactionary, hierarchical, etc... the latter being liberating, innovative, useful, relevant, etc.....
T:
Again, I must respectfully disagree. This is simply a statement of fact about the relation between improv and humans. All humans. Nothing special about it. It is true about every human that I have ever met. Of course, just like any other innate human process, some are better at it, and more interested in it than others. It has nothing to do with finding harmony - that's an entirely different subject. It is simply the way people - all people - are. If one couldn't improvise, then almost every human activity we take for granted would become vey difficult, if not impossible (ex. making dinner, driving a car, having a conversation).
I do not really understand what you mean by the difference between Written(fixed tradition) and Flux (momentary traditions). Could you give examples? Surely you are not advocating a return to pre-literate civilization??
T:
3."Some people are especially attracted to playing and creating with sounds. It makes sense that every kind of sound they are aware of, every kind of sound they focus on and pay attention to, everything that they learn about creating and organizing sounds gives them a greater amount of awareness and knowledge about the possibilities of sound. It makes them better at understanding and being able to create out of these possibilities. The more one understands, both consciously and unconsciously, the more possibilities are available when one is improvising with sound. It's silly to say that a hammer is a better tool than a screwdriver. They are both very useful when the need arises.<"
A.A:
yep, but take a step back....start with your first two words: "some people".
everything else makes sense, now figure out the "some people" part, and you'll be onto something. the "why"? if you get my drift.
its cause and effect right? figure out why "some people" seem to be this way or that.
go back and survey what you can of culture and tradition and lifeways and you'll find that
it shouldnt and wasnt always just "some people". dig?
T:
Even in cultures where there is no "music" or "musician" as we understand it, there are people who are particularly attracted to and good at playing with and creating sounds, and engage and specialize in that activity more than others. I do understand your point though. Western culture has a most peculiar and unusual view of "music" - indeed of all art.
It doesn't change my point though, which is about how people learn to get better at making the sounds they want to make.
T:
4."The kind of sounds that people pay attention to, the kinds of things they learn how to do on their instrument is very individual (both personally and culturally), but there is no essential difference between learning one's scales and arpeggios and learning how to create 17 different kinds of shrieking sounds."
A.A:
right and wrong.
there is a HUGE difference between shreeking sounds and scales.
psychological, physical etc......
T:
Don't disagree with that. What i said though was there is no essential difference between LEARNING shrieking sounds and scales. The process of how one learns is the same.
A.A:
i agree that forms and sounds are the product of regional diversity and syncretic cultural adaptations, however, because "sound" is a form of energy which is based upon its own set of rules (just like light) there are differences in their effects on human beings!!!!
T:
Agreed. There are many ways that sound effects and has meaning for us. Different kinds of sounds and different combinations of sound have different meanings and effects us differently. If that was not so, then music would not be as powerful and pervasive as it is.
I think that it is a big leap from saying that sound is energy and saying that there are inherent ways that different kinds of sound energy effect all humans. In the grossest ways this is easy to see (loud and soft, low sound waves, etc), but though I intuitively feel that there are more subtle universal effects and meanings it is a very hard case to make. Do you have any supporting evidence to this claim? Any specific ideas about which effects of sound are universal and which are cultural? this would be a very interesting topic of discussion to me.
A.A:
so, taking a step back and looking at WHY you are "using" this set or that set of tones, or Tonal POssibilities, is ESSENTIAL. its like being politically or socially aware, being conscious of what forces are molding or hindering you.
T:
I use this set of tones (when I wish to say certain things musically that require the use of them) because that is my native language - for the same reason I use english when I speak and write. However, at this point in the history of Western music, there is no hinderance involved. There are no longer any forbidden sounds or combination of sounds. It's the beauty of music - unlike spoken language it is non-specific, and at this point any sounds are fair game. Even very popular musical forms such as rap feel free to juxtapose almost any sound and tonality with any other.
A.A:
western 12 tone equal temperment is undeniably ACTIVE and "aggravating" to the human psyche. this is a matter of science and physics.
T:
Active yes - that's undeniable. Aggravating? How do you come to that conclusion? Why would any division of the octave be more aggravating than any other?
