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Post by cliff on Jun 14, 2007 7:38:46 GMT
Music is music, and sound is sound... but there are albums that are a much tougher listen than most other albums.
I've seen this on other threads, so try to list a listening challenge consisting of multiple albums (probably 5 tops) to be listened to back to back or at least close together.
Off the top of my head I can go:
1) Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica 2) Maudlin of the Well - Bath 3) Maudlin of the Well - Leaving Your Body Map (sister album to bath by maudlin of the well) 4) Peter Brotzmann - Machine Gun 5) Whitehouse - Erector (just to fuck you up for good)
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 14, 2007 9:04:59 GMT
One sound cannot be defined as more 'musical' than another. You contextualize sound. One sound does not have properties that make it more musical than any other. You have grown up in the western world where 12 tones to the octave is the norm. If since the day you were born you'd been confined to one room where Whitehouse played for a couple hours a day and told that it was music then you'd think that Whitehouse was simply the norm. Now...
Sachiko M & Sean Meehan - Untitled Radu Malfatti - Zeitschatten Jason Lescalleet - Mattresslessness
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chud
First Hits
Posts: 29
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Post by chud on Jun 14, 2007 14:08:32 GMT
Orthrelm - OV Lou Reed - Metal Machine Music
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Post by fvgazi on Jun 14, 2007 14:43:02 GMT
merzbow and john wiese- multiplication
i never understood why i got this album in the first place, and i really don't understand why i still HAVE it.
*shudder*
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Post by hospitalcomedian on Jun 14, 2007 17:47:21 GMT
smashing pumpkins - adore honest to fuck, it's a hard slog.
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Post by ShawnPhase on Jun 14, 2007 19:47:06 GMT
c4am95 - 3 don caballero - 2 hella - hold your horse is autechre - ep 7 i'd probably throw 'boku mo wakaran' by bogdan raczynski in there too.
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Post by hospitalcomedian on Jun 14, 2007 20:41:51 GMT
mr. phase, i'm confused by you picking don cab the 2nd. i walked my dog listening to it the other day and i did the five and half miles faster than ever. good shout on autechre though. i don't know ep 7, but the split album they did with the hafler trio sounds like what i'd imagine electricity tastes like. i'd also put forward pop tatari by the boredoms.
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Rocco
You Drink a Lot of Coffee For a Teenager
Posts: 157
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Post by Rocco on Jun 15, 2007 3:16:22 GMT
Interesting thread. Out of my own collection, here's my picks:
Coil - Gold is the Metal Praxis - Sacrifist Hair and Skin Trading Company - Psychedelische Musique (Lava Surf Kunst) Skinny Puppy - Puppy Gristle Autechre - Confield
Shawnphase, I was surprised you chose EP7 of all the Ae releases -- I find that one really listenable compared to Draft 7.30, Confield or Gantz Graf. Don't get me wrong, those three have their time and place but it's not exactly frequent.
If I had some Residents I'd throw them in the list too, but I kept Duck Stab around on the ol' hard drive for about 2 years before finally deleting it. Too challenging, I guess.
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Post by cliff on Jun 15, 2007 5:07:02 GMT
One sound cannot be defined as more 'musical' than another. You contextualize sound. One sound does not have properties that make it more musical than any other. You have grown up in the western world where 12 tones to the octave is the norm. If since the day you were born you'd been confined to one room where Whitehouse played for a couple hours a day and told that it was music then you'd think that Whitehouse was simply the norm. Now... Sachiko M & Sean Meehan - Untitled Radu Malfatti - Zeitschatten Jason Lescalleet - Mattresslessness While I do agree with you, and believe most of what you say to be true (context and conditioning and all)... don't you also think that maybe humans are born and hardwired with at least a small predisposition or innate preference for certain sounds? Probably leaning towards tonal music or at least where there is resolution within dissonance? Let's pretend for a second that we have a mature human being, able to think for himself and make cognitive and rational decisions. Let's also pretend that he has never heard performed music of any kind, ever. All he has heard is the sound of nature, and of other humans. The natural sounds of the world. If you took this guy and played the Beatles... let's say Come Together. Then you played something like Whitehouse, or Merzbow, or what have you. Which do you think the subject would prefer? I'm really thinking the Beatles! So my argument is that maybe some music/sounds ARE innately more "musical" than others. Thus making certain albums or artists more of a challenge to understand/accept or to consider "listenable". More of an acquired taste. I mean, where in the world is the popular music and it's structure or theory so vastly different than our western music? Sure there are quarter tone systems, the whole tone scale, and various other "exotic or synthetic" scales. But where is there just this drastically more wide-open, dissonant musical scheme? In conclusion... I do believe that human beings are predisposed, to some degree, to finding tonal-oriented music more accessible than it's atonal or experimental counterpart. Thoughts...
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 15, 2007 9:12:11 GMT
One sound cannot be defined as more 'musical' than another. You contextualize sound. One sound does not have properties that make it more musical than any other. You have grown up in the western world where 12 tones to the octave is the norm. If since the day you were born you'd been confined to one room where Whitehouse played for a couple hours a day and told that it was music then you'd think that Whitehouse was simply the norm. Now... Sachiko M & Sean Meehan - Untitled Radu Malfatti - Zeitschatten Jason Lescalleet - Mattresslessness While I do agree with you, and believe most of what you say to be true (context and conditioning and all)... don't you also think that maybe humans are born and hardwired with at least a small predisposition or innate preference for certain sounds? Probably leaning towards tonal music or at least where there is resolution within dissonance? Let's pretend for a second that we have a mature human being, able to think for himself and make cognitive and rational decisions. Let's also pretend that he has never heard performed music of any kind, ever. All he has heard is the sound of nature, and of other humans. The natural sounds of the world. If you took this guy and played the Beatles... let's say Come Together. Then you played something like Whitehouse, or Merzbow, or what have you. Which do you think the subject would prefer? I'm really thinking the Beatles! So my argument is that maybe some music/sounds ARE innately more "musical" than others. Thus making certain albums or artists more of a challenge to understand/accept or to consider "listenable". More of an acquired taste. I mean, where in the world is the popular music and it's structure or theory so vastly different than our western music? Sure there are quarter tone systems, the whole tone scale, and various other "exotic or synthetic" scales. But where is there just this drastically more wide-open, dissonant musical scheme? In conclusion... I do believe that human beings are predisposed, to some degree, to finding tonal-oriented music more accessible than it's atonal or experimental counterpart. Thoughts... I'm glad you replied. You mention a predisposition and preference to certain sounds before a child is born but the example you gave mentioned the sounds of nature and sound of the human voice. Both of those things have strong connections with eachother and to the current tonal language. In that case he would choose the Beatles! There is no dissonant musical scheme, you're right. But that's because the sounds of their environments informed their own schemes. What natural sound environment on earth is harshly dissonant? I don't believe humans in the beginning were pre-disposed towards a tonal music. Perhaps through learned evolution, but then it has been learned over time, through experience. Are you saying that humans in the very beginning were pre-disposed towards tonal music? I'm just thinking aloud.
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Post by hospitalcomedian on Jun 15, 2007 14:40:12 GMT
if you compare dissonance in sound to contrast in colour (and maybe you shouldn't), it does seem like harmonic resolution and such would be innately more pleasant than dissonant sound. if you see bright red lettering on a bright blue background it seems to jump around because they conflict with each other. when you (and by "you" i mean "i") see this, it makes you blink and struggle to focus a little bit i.e. your eyes don't like it. similarly if overtly jarring sounds occur together, loud enough, your eardrums will vibrate all a-wrongly (perhaps), causing displeasure. do you (and by "you i do mean "you") know what i'm trying to say?
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chud
First Hits
Posts: 29
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Post by chud on Jun 15, 2007 15:04:36 GMT
if you compare dissonance in sound to contrast in colour (and maybe you shouldn't), it does seem like harmonic resolution and such would be innately more pleasant than dissonant sound. if you see bright red lettering on a bright blue background it seems to jump around because they conflict with each other. when you (and by "you" i mean "i") see this, it makes you blink and struggle to focus a little bit i.e. your eyes don't like it. similarly if overtly jarring sounds occur together, loud enough, your eardrums will vibrate all a-wrongly (perhaps), causing displeasure. do you (and by "you i do mean "you") know what i'm trying to say? That's exactly right, it's just a simple matter in the physics of waves. The brain responds more to sounds that are aurally pleasing (perfect harmonies and non-fluctuating tones) and lights that are visually pleasing. When the waves are conflicting, the brain can pick it up right away and it takes a lot of conditioning for the brain not to respond with displeasure.
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ourcaballero
You Drink a Lot of Coffee For a Teenager
I didn't need that eye surgery either.
Posts: 122
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Post by ourcaballero on Jun 15, 2007 19:58:21 GMT
mr. phase, i'm confused by you picking don cab the 2nd. I agree. That's a grand album. I suggest these listening challenges: 1. Niles - Religion is the Falling Sky 2. NOW! That's What I Call Music Vol. 6 3. The Big Problem ≠ The Solution. The Solution = Let It Be - Crispin Glover 4. Chroma - Cartel I don't own the last two, but they've got to be awful to an endless extent. The first one is my album, which can be purchased at ihadanaccidentrecords.com
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Post by Don Caballero on Jun 16, 2007 13:42:40 GMT
if you compare dissonance in sound to contrast in colour (and maybe you shouldn't), it does seem like harmonic resolution and such would be innately more pleasant than dissonant sound. if you see bright red lettering on a bright blue background it seems to jump around because they conflict with each other. when you (and by "you" i mean "i") see this, it makes you blink and struggle to focus a little bit i.e. your eyes don't like it. similarly if overtly jarring sounds occur together, loud enough, your eardrums will vibrate all a-wrongly (perhaps), causing displeasure. do you (and by "you i do mean "you") know what i'm trying to say? I know what you're trying to say. But you're only repeating something we've already been through. These things aren't pre-disposed, they just occur because of the conditioning you experience by living in the world we do and perhaps evolution (debateable). For example strongly clashing colours aren't an everyday occurance in our society and there's even less in the natural world. Colours are only colours, you give them context. Just as two notes played one after another are just two notes right? Just as an object does not have limitations, you impose limitations upon it.
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Post by FauxAssNonsense on Jun 16, 2007 13:48:38 GMT
I mean, where in the world is the popular music and it's structure or theory so vastly different than our western music? Sure there are quarter tone systems, the whole tone scale, and various other "exotic or synthetic" scales. But where is there just this drastically more wide-open, dissonant musical scheme? remember when Europeans decided that the rest of the world had to be European? there's a reason that most of the world uses the Western tonal system. people are wired to enjoy a certain kind of sound. very small children, for instance, naturally feel comfort when they hear their mother's voice. people are NOT wired to enjoy a certain kind of music. your argument about some one never hearing music, and then being introduced to the Beatles and Whitehouse isn't really a valid point. Whitehouse is very offputting for many reasons other than the music aspect. there's the sonic aspect, the lyrical content, etc. it is very angry, and thus not attractive. Trout Mask Replica is a hard listen due to length. Mindflayer stuff is the same. some of the other choices i find a little confusing, but this is a very subjective topic. some body coming from a certain background could find 2 by Don Cab very challenging. i personally listen to Confield and Duck Stab a lot. some one once put it this way: if you insert some MASONNA in to a J.S. Bach sonata, that's dissonance. if you insert a few bars of a J.S. Bach sonata in to a MASONNA track, that's dissonance. MASONNAs music, on it's own, is not dissonant. it is dissonant within the context of tonal music (i.e. if you listen to a bunch of Bach and then MASONNA, it appears dissonant). when you consider it by itself, though, apart from the context of other, unrelated music, MASONNA is all consonant.
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